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ceilidh(d) |
blown to smitherines |
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Does anyone know the origin of the phrase "blown to smitherines?"
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ozziemaland |
Re: blown to smitherines | ||
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Welcome to this discussion board, Ceilidh.
Couple of newsgroup postings of some relevance: gooja1 Smithereens seems to be a perfectly good Irish word. My references give its origin as "smiderin", an old Irish word meaning fragment. The EEN suffix seems to be common in other languages also and suggests an older source somewhere. gooja2 Reminds me of the usage example for "smithereens" given in Ambrose Bierrce's "Devil's Dictionary": "Yesterday I paid a call on Mrs. Smith and all the young Smithereens." [from memory] -- Henry Churchyard |
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ozziemaland |
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The MOA search engines have many usages in the 1800s heres one from 1846:
" O, dear! 0, dear!" sez he, " we'll be knocked into smithereens!" www.hti.umich.edu/cgi/t/text/pageviewer I used the word in one of my first limericks, c. 1992: I once met a woman of wealth Who claimed to eat mildew for health; When no one believed what she told, She cooked up a potful of mold And ate fungus among us by stealth. This same little lady of means Used mildew to season some beans; When offered this potent legume Her husband was blown from the room And torn up in to fine smithereens. (Witnesses at the scene compared him to Napoleon, blown apart.) |
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ozziemaland |
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OED2 suggests that the word smithereens may have preceded the modern Irish smidirn and been the source of such; excerpt from OED2, with etymology of smithereens first:
var. of {smithers}, with Irish diminutive ending, and either adopted from, or the source of, mod.Ir. smidirn.] Small fragments; atoms. Usually in phrases to knock, split, blow (etc.) to or into, to go to, smithereens. Also fig. 1829 G. Griffin Collegians II. xxii. 157 A body would tink it hardly safe to stand here under 'em, in dread dey'd come tumblin' down, may be, an' make smiddereens of him, bless de mark! 1841 S. C. Hall Ireland I. 68 The harness that was broke into smithereens. Ibid. III. 303 The sun..split it into smithereens. |
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ceilidh(d) |
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Thanks. I always wondered if "Smitherines" was an actual place -- or perhaps had to do with the marines -- somehow "those marines" became "s'marines," became "smitherines."
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foolscap(d) |
smithereens | ||
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I had always assumed it had to do with the blacksmith's shop. When you heat a piece of iron or steel up to red hot, it develops a blackish coating, I think consisting of carbon and/or iron oxide. When the smith beats on it, the particles go flying. Pieces of steel go flying as well.
There would also be the residue from filing or otherwise shaping the metals. There is a character in Beowulf named "Eglaf" (pronounced "edge-laugh") If my memory is correct, the name means "edge-leavings", in other words, what is left behind after sharpening a sword. A bit of Anglo-Saxon humor. Basically the floor of a smithy is covered with soot and debris, shards and ground metal; the tailings of a profession. That's what seems logically would be the actual meaning of "smithereens", so it was surprising not to have it borne out by the dictionary. But that's why this site is here, to keep reminding us to check our facts. |
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ozziemaland |
Re: blown to smitherines | ||
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The image that occurs to me is that of a smith, sometimes called smithy/smithier/smither, pounding a piece of metal in to smither-eens.
Edit: pipped by Foolscap, who posted much better than I. |
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foolscap(d) |
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I missed that part about "smither", Ozzie. (Misplaced my AHD!) Good point. That would be a logical progression from smith to smithereens.
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MoMac |
Re: blown to smitherines | ||
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I could see the smith to smithereens link if smithereens was an English language word, but it isn't. Smidirn in Irish is the singular and if it is a regular noun, the plural would be smidirni, pronounced something like smithereenee.
So in a related question, is the word smidge related to smithereens? Looking at the spelling of the Irish word smidirn and knowing that th and d often sound the same when spoken by some Irish people, it sounds to me like it could. But I don't know that for a fact, so is there any link? |
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language hat |
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MoMac, "smithereens" is an English word -- what gives you the idea it isn't? Yes, it has an Irish ending, but that doesn't mean the entire word is originally Irish; it's much more likely the Irish adapted it from English.
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MoMac |
Re: blown to smitherines | ||
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I beg your pardon. I misread that.
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ElizaD |
Re: blown to smitherines | ||
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I'm reminded of smidge(o)n: AHD:
Probably alteration of dialectal smitch, particle, perhaps ultimately from Middle English smite, perhaps from past participle of smiten, to smite. See smite. Perhaps, perhaps, perhaps. |
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JimWilton |
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I don't follow, LH. Why would it be more likely that the Irish word "smiderin" came from the English word "smithereens" rather than the other way around. Why would a word originating in English come equiped with an Irish diminutive ending?
The earliest OED usage (1829) seems to be from a novel of a character speaking in dialect. It is unclear if the character is Irish. As far as I can see, none of the usages -- either early usages or late -- ever name metal tailings in a smithy "smithereens". Because of that, and the fact that the 1829 usage has an alternative spelling "smiddereens" I am unconvinced that the origin is any relation to the word "smith". The word "smidgen" or "smidgeon" or "smidgin" may or may not be related -- I would guess it probably is related. It is listed later -- but not much later -- 1845. The earliest usage of the Irish word would be useful in speculating on the origin. |
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foolscap(d) |
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Griffin was writing about the Irish in 1829, apparently, so the case is strong for an Irish origin.
Admittedly my own conception was influenced by the iconic place the smith occupies in western culture. I've been in a couple of machine shops, the modern equivalent of the old smithy. There are two kinds: compulsively neat, tidy, and productive, yet devoid of personality -- or squalid, fearsomely messy, and filled with the history and imprint of hard work, talent, and knowledge. The latter is the kind to go to to get a difficult problem solved. And of course there's a poem by Henry Wadsworth Longfellow: Under a spreading chestnut-tree The village smithy stands; The smith, a mighty man is he, With large and sinewy hands; And the muscles of his brawny arms Are strong as iron bands. His hair is crisp, and black, and long, His face is like the tan; His brow is wet with honest sweat, He earns whate'er he can, And looks the whole world in the face, For he owes not any man. Week in, week out, from morn till night, You can hear his bellows blow; You can hear him swing his heavy sledge, With measured beat and slow, Like a sexton ringing the village bell, When the evening sun is low. And children coming home from school Look in at the open door; They love to see the flaming forge, And hear the bellows roar, And catch the burning sparks that fly Like chaff from a threshing-floor. He goes on Sunday to the church, And sits among his boys; He hears the parson pray and preach, He hears his daughter's voice, Singing in the village choir, And it makes his heart rejoice. It sounds to him like her mother's voice, Singing in Paradise! He needs must think of her once more, How in the grave she lies; And with his hard, rough hand he wipes A tear out of his eyes. Toiling,---rejoicing,---sorrowing, Onward through life he goes; Each morning sees some task begin, Each evening sees it close; Something attempted, something done, Has earned a night's repose. Thanks, thanks to thee, my worthy friend, For the lesson thou hast taught! Thus at the flaming forge of life Our fortunes must be wrought; Thus on its sounding anvil shaped Each burning deed and thought. http://delnero.com/blacksmith/smithy.html |
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JimWilton |
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A good example of why certain 19th century poets (Longfellow, Joyce Kilmer) are no longer read.
It is hard to believe that they were contemporaries of Walt Whitman. |
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language hat |
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I don't follow, LH. Why would it be more likely that the Irish word "smiderin" came from the English word "smithereens" rather than the other way around. Why would a word originating in English come equiped with an Irish diminutive ending?
Because there's a perfectly good English etymology of smithers, and smithereens is simply smithers with an Irish ending tacked on. Does the existence of beatnik prove that beat is a Russian word? |
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JimWilton |
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My (exceedingly inadequate) dictionary doesn't have "smithers" as a word. And it wasn't clear from your post that this is what you meant. What does this word mean? Does it have a known etymology?
As far as the indisputably Irish ending, I was just asking the question (and you haven't answered it). I can explain how the Beat (short for Beatific) poets ended up as Beatniks. Can you explain why an English word "smithers" acquired an Irish ending? |
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DaveWilton |
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What's the etymology of "smithers"? The OED lists it as obscure, and with a later date than "smithereens." From the OED entries, I would think it more likely that "smithers" came from "smithereens," rather than the reverse.
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ozziemaland |
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For the singular "smither, n." my OED2 has 1435 -- wouldn't "smithers" just be the normal plural of, or possessive for, an old noun? (Yes, it is designated as rare, but that doesn't preclude normal plurals/possessives, does it?)
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foolscap(d) |
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A good example of why certain 19th century poets (Longfellow, Joyce Kilmer) are no longer read.
Hey! I'm not endorsing it, just reporting it. Poor Longfellow, the subject of many a parody. |
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ElizaD |
Re: blown to smitherines | ||
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SOED:
smithereens ... 1841. [f. next, with Irish dim. ending.] smithers ... 1847. [Origin obsc.] What's the etymology of Irish smidirn? And what could be the reason that the OED is so certain smithereens is from smithers since smithereens antedates smithers? edited for clarity |
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