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 OP Tipping |
deed poll |
Lead | |
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Posts: 2198 (09/18/06 19:00:35) |
This term is used in Australia and the UK, and some other places, to refer to an instrument for making certain official changes, most often to change one's name.
What is the connection between "poll" used in this phrase and the general meaning of poll? Seems a bit odd. |
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DaveWilton |
Re: deed poll | ||
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Posts: 7490 (09/19/06 05:40:34) Administrator |
Poll originally meant head, and is commonly used in reference to the counting of heads. It's either from or cognate with the Dutch pol meaning top or summit.
In the case of deed poll, it comes from the verb meaning to shave (the head). Since this type of change to a deed affects only one party--unlike a transfer of ownership--the document edges would be cut straight. For two party documents, the cut would be jagged so the two halves could be matched. deed poll dates to the 16th century and is contrasted with deed indented. Thanks. This is a good one for the Big List and being an American I never would have thought of it. |
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language hat |
Re: deed poll | ||
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Posts: 2772 (09/19/06 05:58:28) |
Fascinating -- I immediately posted about it at LH. Thanks, guys!
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Dutchtoo |
Re: deed poll | ||
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Posts: 714 (09/19/06 09:30:49) |
It might interest you to know that in modern Dutch the meaning of pol is limited to 'a lump of grass'. I didn't make the connection right away, but my dictonaries confirm what you wrote.
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OP Tipping |
Re: deed poll | ||
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Posts: 2198 (09/19/06 15:42:15) |
Great stuff, Dave, thanks.
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Steve G |
Re: deed poll | ||
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Posts: 755 (09/19/06 23:10:07) |
Just reading this for the first time, it looks like a UL (of course it is not). Such a neat explanation!
Just shows you have to be careful when both accepting and dismissing proposed origins. I assume that the indented deed gave rise to the term "indentured"? |
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Faldage |
Re: indented servants | ||
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Posts: 2176 (09/20/06 03:34:38) |
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DaveWilton |
Re: deed poll | ||
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Posts: 7490 (09/20/06 05:44:44) Administrator |
Indented deed, per se, is not the origin of indentured, but indenting a legal document is.
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Steve G |
Re: deed poll | ||
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Posts: 755 (09/21/06 02:05:46) |
One odd thing about this, why is the noun first and the adjective second?
We have Title Deeds, but why Deeds Poll (and Indented)? I can see that this order might have arisen from some legal/technical circumstance, but to continue in this order? Just a matter of intertia once the phrase entered use? |
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foolscap(d) |
Re: deed poll | ||
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Posts: 720 (09/21/06 06:01:08) |
Somebody once commented that legalese in the common law countries (British law derivations including the US) is based not on Latin and French but on how the English upper class lawyers of previous centuries mangled Latin and French. So "deed poll" must follow the model of "attorney general" and many other such phrases which put the modifier after the noun.
The interesting thing here is that neither "deed" nor "poll" is of French or Latin origin. Nope, good ol' Anglo-Saxonish. I've always wondered where "poll" came from and never bothered to look it up. The hated "poll tax" must also fall in here somewhere. |
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Dr Techie |
Re: deed poll | ||
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Posts: 9773 (09/21/06 06:53:35) |
"Poll deed" and "deed poll" were both in use from the 16th - 19th century, judging from cites in the OED. I don't know if there's any more reason for the latter's ascendancy than the desire (common among holders of many sorts of specialized knowledge, not just lawyers) to make their technical vocabulary more obscure and less accessible to the laity.
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JimWilton |
Re: deed poll | ||
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Posts: 703 (09/21/06 08:31:55) |
The popular notion of "indenture" or "indentured servant" has little to do with the modern legal term. Although there may be some conceptual link between the concept of "bonds" as debt instruments and obligation or servitude. And perhaps -- as Dave points out -- the terms may both have originated in the form of "indented" documents. However, my dictionary lists the etymology for "indent" (ME indenten, fr. MF endenter 14c."). And indenture from ME endenture, fr. MF endenter 14c.) So the words seem to have always been separate in English.
Indentures are instruments governing debt -- often debt issued to the public -- regulated by the Trust Indenture Act. The debt terms are normally negotiated by investment bankers and indenture trustees who make their livelihoods based on fees paid by the borrower companies. So there are many standard conventions and covenants for this type of debt but there are also a lot of "loopholes". One of the better articles that I've read on problems with public bond debt of this type had a working title "Adventures with Subordinated Debenture Indentures". |
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