Place names - Wordorigins Org - All - Wordorigins Discussion Forum - Message Board - Yuku

RSS
Email

0 Kudo

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Place names

Author	Comment
bayard(d)	Place names	Lead	[-]
Posts: 53 (02/09/07 02:05:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Tags : None Here in Wales, the authorities have the annoying habit of pointlessly wasting our money by changing signs so that they give place-names in Welsh and English, even here in South Pembrokeshire, known as Little England Beyond Wales, which has not been Welsh speaking for about 800 years. Here many of the place-names are English or Norse in origin, so that the Welsh names given appear to be either modern translations or simply renderings of the same name so that it sounds more "Welsh". Is there any way I can find out if a place name is an ancient Welsh name or some modern confection brought about by the need to follow political diktat? How does one find out the earliest citation of a place name?
aldiboronti	Re: Place names	#1	[-]
Posts: 8497 (02/09/07 07:12:10) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	I can't find anything useful, bayard, but I'm both surprised and fascinated by your post. I had never heard of Little England Beyond Wales. The Wikipedia article gives some background for other similarly benighted souls. (It also uses the delightful terms Englishry and Welshry.)
ElizaD	Re: Place names	#2	[-]
Posts: 5686 (02/09/07 08:42:47) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	It may not be exactly what you're after, but this site gives a glossary of Welsh place-name elements. www.jlb2005.plus.com/wales/glossary/index.htm There are several books on the subject: this one by A D Mills, entitled "A Dictionary of British Place Names" seems to be relevant. And, if you're prepared to accept stiff penalties if you infringe copyright, this site looks promising. But I was too scared to dip into it. www.e-gymraeg.co.uk/enwaulleoedd/amr/agreement.aspx Edit: I was also surprised to hear of Little England Beyond Wales, so thanks for an interesting post.
aldiboronti	Re: Place names	#3	[-]
Posts: 8497 (02/09/07 08:56:34) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Nice find, eliza. And don't be alarmed, it's a standard copyright warning, though perhaps couched in somewhat sterner terms nthan usual. It's perfectly OK to access it and make 'fair use' of it, ie print short extracts, etc.
bayard(d)	Place-names	#4	[-]
Posts: 53 (02/10/07 06:20:33) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	Sadly, the link you provided, Eliza, didn't come up with a reference for my village, either the original "Stackpole" or Gallified name, "Ystangbwll". I think 13 hits on google for the latter, compared with 1,100,000 for the former tends to indicate the recent coining of the name. The original is thought to date back to before the Norman conquest and so would predates the change to English speaking of the area. Your first link told me that "bwll" is Welsh for "pool", which would make sense, Stackpole originally being Stackpool, but neither "Ystang" or "stang" appear to be Welsh words. Moreover, the "Welsh" for a stack (pillar of rock in the sea) appears to be "stac". Meanwhile, the hunt for the (recent) origins of Ystangbwll goes on......
aldiboronti	Re: Place-names	#5	[-]
Posts: 8497 (02/10/07 08:15:22) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	*Quote:* Meanwhile, the hunt for the (recent) origins of Ystangbwll goes on...... Ah, the many-towered minarets of Ystangbwll! The stupendous dome of Haga Sophia, the ........... Wait a minute. Wrong one. Charming coincidence in sound though.
ElizaD	Re: Stackpool	#6	[-]
Posts: 5686 (02/10/07 08:16:15) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	This might be more relevant then, bayard. The name of this place is derived from the Stack rock at the mouth of the Broad Haven, at the head of which it is situated, in the Bristol channel; and its adjunct from St. Elidur, to whom the original foundation of its church is attributed. I also found this site. The place names within a few miles of Stackpole are rather interesting. Maiden Wells, Hodgeston, Jameston, Hundleton, and Carew Cheriton all bespeak the attraction this land had for the English in days of yore. The name Stackpole seems to have been derived from the stack at the entrance to Broadhaven, one of several tall stacks of rock on the shoreline, formed by the relentless surge of the sea against softer surrounding materials. Morgan and Morgan (in their Welsh Surnames) tell us that the earliest owner of Stackpole had the Welsh name of Elidor or Elidir. This accounts for the fact that the nearby location of Cheriton was formerly known as Stackpole Elidor. Edit: I see I haven't quite answered the question, so the hunt continues.
Eyehawk	Re: Place names	#7	[-]
Posts: 2309 (02/18/07 02:11:31) Reply Quote More My Recent Posts Message Me Connection Blocking Invite Ignore User's Posts	What we need is some "white noise", me thinks.

<< Previous Topic Next Topic >>

Quick Reply