There but for the grace of God in Wordorigins Archive 08 (03-04/03) Forum

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There but for the grace of God

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Unregistered(d)	There but for the grace of God	Lead	[-]
Posts: 0 Apr 13 03 2:44 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Tags : None I have always wondered what it meant and where it came from and then I found this website. Thanks for your help. P
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Skibberoo	re: TBFTGOGGI	#1	[-]
Posts: 1648 Apr 13 03 3:06 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Through the kind offices of Brewers: "Is a phrase used by the self-righteous or smug when others are faced with disaster, disgrace or the like as a result of their actions. It implies that they could well have been in the same position but have been fortunate enough to escape. The phrase is usually traced back to the Protestant martyr John Bradford (c.1510-55), who on seeing a group of criminals being led to their execution, remarked, 'But fot the grace of God there goes John Bradford.' "
Unregistered(d)	re:TBFTGOG	#2	[-]
Posts: 0 Apr 13 03 3:11 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Thanks so much! That was quick... P
doctordoowop	Re: re:TBFTGOG	#3	[-]
Posts: 2595 Apr 13 03 10:49 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	What a twist-a male thanked for being quick.:-)
Dr Techie	Re: re:TBFTGOG	#4	[-]
Posts: 9773 Apr 14 03 10:56 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I think "self-righteous or smug" is an unwarranted piece of editorializing on Brewer's part. I've heard it used in situations where the speaker clearly recognized, and intended, that he could find himself in a situation similar to that which he was commenting on, and had escaped or avoided it by no merit of his own.
cwilton	Re: re:TBFTGOG	#5	[-]
Posts: 8 Apr 14 03 8:38 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	It's also one of a half-dozen or so mottos used by Alcoholics Anonymous.
Skibberoo	re: But for the grace of God	#6	[-]
Posts: 1648 Apr 15 03 5:50 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Dr T: "I think 'self-righteous or smug' is an unwarranted piece of editorializing on Brewer's part." When I posted the Brewers excerpt I also reacted as you did to the self-righteous or smug bit. However, on second thoughts, I saw it as valid comment. If a speaker recognizes that he could have been involved in similar circumstances, I think it would be more appropriate to say, There, but for my good fortune/luck, go I. By using but for the grace of God I believe that there is an intended presumption that the speaker is favored by God and is therefore protected from such misfortunes. Luck anyone can claim or blame, but proprietary divine right or favor is another thing. But, given who John Bradford was or thought he was, perhaps he didnt/couldnt believe in simple luck or good fortune and, of course, the original phrase (if it is truly recorded as was purportedly said) is dramatic and memorable!
Dr Techie	Re: re: But for the grace of God	#7	[-]
Posts: 9773 Apr 15 03 6:26 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I think you (perhaps also Brewer) have seriously misunderstood the concept of "grace" as used in Christianity, but this is not the place to debate it.
dhurd	Re: re:"grace" as used in Christianity,"	#8	[-]
Posts: 488 Apr 15 03 10:25 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Dr. T, please clarify. It would seem to me that variations on the meanings of words as used in a religious context could be of interest to this panel. I would like Rev Jim's opinion on that point.
Dr Techie	Re: re:"grace" as used in Christianity,"	#9	[-]
Posts: 9773 Apr 15 03 10:37 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	I'll quote the relevant definition from the OED2, and that's as far as I'm going into it. Whole books have been written on the subject. "The free and unmerited favour of God as manifested in the salvation of sinners and the bestowing of blessings." Emphasis mine, to point out why I think "smug" and "self-righteous" are unwarranted.
dhurd	Re: re:"grace" as used in Christianity,"	#10	[-]
Posts: 488 Apr 15 03 10:44 AM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Dr T, no quarrel with your quotation. Except that "smug and self righteous persons" seem unlikely to be aware of it.
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Dr Techie	Re: re:"grace" as used in Christianity,"	#11	[-]
Posts: 9773 Apr 15 03 12:14 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	There's a degree of circularity to that argument, however. Also, my point is not that smug or self-righteous people never use the phrase, it's that Brewer is wrong in suggesting that its use necessarily implies smugness or self-righteousness.
jgorman64	Re: re:"grace" as used in Christianity,"	#12	[-]
Posts: 3698 Apr 15 03 12:33 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Perhaps cwilton might join in here as well. I've agreed with Dr. T. on this question even before he introduced the grace note (great phrase,BTW). I've always heard this expression used, well, gracefully. That is, "that could be me." And that is certainly the way AA uses the phrase. Which reminds of that great NYkr cartoon. Two priests walking on the sidewalk. Coming toward them is a rich man with two women one on each arm and a bottle of liquor in each hand. The one priest says to the other, "There but for the grace of God go ye and I." Also, where did Phil Ochs get "There but for fortune?" Is this a version of the saying that pre-dates his tune? Jim Edit: found this at a tab website: "Phil's comments about this song from Sing Out:" "Based on the saying, 'There but for the grace of God,' the song was written while driving to Lincoln, Nebraska. This is one of the few cases in which I had the melody written first and was able to write the words in less than ten minutes."
dhurd	Re: re:"grace" as used in Christianity,"	#13	[-]
Posts: 488 Apr 15 03 12:38 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Inclusion of "necessarily" makes your last point inarguable of course. As with many other things it comes down to a subjective view of what is probable. As a confirmed cynic, I remain convinced that in the main these persons are "smug and self righteous", but I can certainly see your point of view.
dhurd	Re: re:"grace" as used in Christianity,"	#14	[-]
Posts: 488 Apr 15 03 12:53 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Ok Jim you have me with the AA quote, I should have remembered it from earlier in the thread. This is after all, in this day and time, the only place where such a phrase is likely to be used. Other uses come to my ears as "mucho pomposo".
ozziemaland	Re: Phil Ochs	#15	[-]
Posts: 5545 Apr 15 03 1:01 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Rev Jim's query re Ochs got me to do a little searching. Found nothing that would suggest "There But For Fortune" preceded his song. Another song was "All the News That's Fit to Sing," an obvious modification of another famous phrase. From his bio I copied the following: "While in Dar Es Salaam, he was mugged and lost the top three notes of his vocal range. This event seemed to send him on a downward spiral. His last years were troubled ones. He suffered from manic depression plus an affinity for the bottle. He committed suicide on April 9, 1976 at the age of 35. "Many of Phil's songs have been covered by other artists. Some of his best known songs are: "Changes", "There But For Fortune", "I Ain't Marching Anymore", "Draft Dodger", "Small Circle of Friends", Crucifixion" and "When I'm Gone". [end excerpt] Footnote: One album recording a live performance by Ochs has him saying that Joan Baez wrote "There But For Fortune." Thus a semi-Urban Legend got started -- he was being sarcastic because Baez' recordings had such popularity. Many knowledgeable folks have confirmed Ochs' unquestionable composition/authorship credit.
Dr Techie	Re: re:"grace" as used in Christianity,"	#16	[-]
Posts: 9773 Apr 15 03 1:27 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	As a confirmed cynic, I remain convinced that in the main these persons are "smug and self righteous", but I can certainly see your point of view. And I can see yours. On my more cynical days, I'd argue that the bulk of humanity is "smug and self-righteous" whether they use TBFTGOGGI or not. But we don't put that sort of editorializing into every entry in the dictionary.
doctordoowop	Re: re:"grace" as used in Christianity,"	#17	[-]
Posts: 2595 Apr 15 03 1:53 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	An aside-Ochs is gone. Why did he do it?
thenostromo	Re: re:"grace" as used in Christianity,"	#18	[-]
Posts: 279 Apr 16 03 2:47 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	Skibberoo mentioned the context that Bradford supposedly said the line. John Bradford (1510-1555) He was burned at the stake at Smithfield, a Protestant martyr. (Quoted in Dictionary of National Biography according to Oxford Dictionary of Quotations 1953) I found a quiz on the Internet once (the webpage no longer exists) that had this question and answer, but I could find no other confirmation, I could not track it down: Question: Who is credited with having exclaimed, "There, but for the grace of God go I"? a) St. Augustine b) King David c) St. Jerome d) St. Philip Neri Answer: D. St. Philip Neri (1515-95) Let brotherly love continue. Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. Remember them that are in bonds, as bound with them; and them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body. ~ (Hebrews 13:1-3) "...by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God. " -Ephesians 2:8
JimWilton	grace	#19	[-]
Posts: 703 Apr 16 03 3:02 PM Reply Quote More My Recent Posts	The Christian concept of grace seems to me to be a universal truth. It is the concept that spiritual achievement cannot be owned. I think it is similar to the Buddhist concept of dedicating any merit achieved in spiritual practice for the benefit of all sentient beings. The metaphor is that giving away any merit or ownership to others is like putting a drop of water in the sea. If you keep the drop yourself, it dries up. If you put it in the sea, it can never dry up. "He who bends to hinself a joy, does the winged life destroy; he who kisses joy as it flies, lives in eternity's sunrise." Wm. Blake
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